Talking to Director Finnegan Clisham about the confusingly brilliant Sondheim musical MERRILY WE ROLL ALONG, which State of the Art Productions presents August 5 & 6

Finnegan Clisham and Jonah Fried celebrating the success of last summer's
State of the Art production of Assassins

by Gil Benbrook

The highly regarded and beloved, but also somewhat problematic, Stephen Sondheim and George Furth musical Merrily We Roll Along focuses on a trio of idealistic youth, including good friends Frank and Charley, a songwriting duo, who at the start of their young adult life are optimistic and hopeful for the future. 

Much like Frank and Charley, Finnegan Clisham and Jonah Fried are also good friends who met in school and have forged a partnership in the State of the Art Productions theatre company and are presenting a production of Merrily We Roll Along next weekend. With Clisham directing and Fried choreographing and providing music direction, duties they also performed on last summer's production of Assassins, the show plays at Spotlight Youth Theatre on August 5 and 6.

The story of Merrily We Roll Along revolves around Frank, Charley and Mary. They are three friends who met in college and over the years became successful in their own ways. However, it's also a somewhat daring show in that it's told in reverse, starting in 1976 and ending in 1957.  

When the show begins only two of the trio are speaking to each other and as the show unfolds, and we go back in time, we see what happened to fracture their relationships. We also see at the end of the show, which is when they first met, how young and positive they were about their future and their friendship before fame and fortune took them on an alternate path sometimes far away from their original goals. The end of the show is especially heartbreaking, seeing how passionate, idealistic and hopeful they all are after we know what will ultimately happen once fame and ambition consumes Frank and the effect it has on Charley, Mary, and Frank's ex-wife Beth.

The musical is based on the 1934 play by George S. Kaufman and Moss Hart of the same name. There isn't a single song in the score or line of dialogue in the show that doesn't add something to the understanding of the characters or the plot. While the original 1981 Broadway production only ran for 16 performances, several of Sondheim's songs became cabaret favorites, including "Not a Day Goes By," "Old Friends," and "Our Time." Other familiar songs from the show that have been heard in several Sondheim review shows or concerts include "Franklin Shepherd Inc," ""Like It Was," and "Good Thing Going,"  It is one of my favorite Sondheim scores.

 

In between final rehearsals of the show, Clisham sat down to answer some questions about the show, his partnership with Fried, and the difficulties in directing a show that's known for being problematic.

Before we talk about this production and your theatre company first I'd like to ask about your time at Arizona Conservatory for Arts and Academics. I know both you and Jonah went there. Is that where you first met each  other, and what was your experience there like?

Finnegan Clisham: "I transferred to ACAA when I was in seventh grade, and one of the things that swung my decision to go there was that their spring musical that year was going to be Sweeney Todd. I didn’t know much about Sweeney Todd, but I knew it had murder and swearing, and that was very different from where I was at the time (my middle school was doing Alice in Wonderland, Jr., since I guess Alice in Wonderland was too risque). 

I met Jonah in line for Sweeney Todd auditions in December—he was a year older than me, so I didn’t see him much after the fact, but it turns out neither of us got in. My sophomore year of high school, I was in the advanced musical theater class with him, and we did productions of A Midsummer Night’s Dream, Sondheim on Sondheim, and The Drowsy Chaperone together. During Midsummer, we really hit it off and became great friends, and the rest is history I suppose. 

My time at ACAA was incredible and I wouldn’t trade it for the world. My voice and theater instructors, Jennifer McNeal and Adam Berger, are the best teachers I’ve ever had, and I can’t recommend them strongly enough."

What were some of your favorite shows you did, both at the Conservatory and in theatre productions in Phoenix, and why were they your favorites?

"I mentioned Sondheim on Sondheim before, which is definitely up there. Getting to do that as a sophomore, I got my first big solo, which was ironically enough “Franklin Shepard, Inc.” from Merrily We Roll Along. And I got to sing “Beautiful” from Sunday in the Park with George, which has become my favorite musical and just a profound influence on my life. Without the school and without that show, who knows where my knowledge of Sondheim would be now? So that was an educational and moving experience, and a great opportunity. 

But I’d also throw in You’re a Good Man, Charlie Brown at Spotlight Youth Theater. That show was a blast because it was this tiny seven-person cast and we really became a unit and got to just go out and have fun every night. And I’d say getting to play Jean Valjean in Les Mis at ACAA my senior year, because I’d feel silly not putting that on the list. That was a very fulfilling show to do. But I really have enjoyed doing almost every show I’ve been in for one reason or another, so it’s hard to narrow it down."

What was behind the creation of State of the Art Productions?

"It’s a boring story but maybe a fun one in a way: Jonah was living in California at the time, and I had recently discovered Assassins on a long flight I’d been on. Jonah came and visited me in Phoenix, and one day I put the cast recording on and I turned to him and was kind of like, 'We could probably just do this, right?' And it sprouted from there. I know when we were getting the rights, Kenny (Grossman, Artistic Director at Spotlight Youth Theatre) asked us to come up with a name, and I think Jonah pitched State of the Art as a Sondheim tribute (a lyric from 'Putting It Together' from Sunday in the Park with George), and I couldn’t think of anything better. So that’s where the name came from. But the idea was always show-first, company-second, if that makes sense."

Last summer you presented Assassins and next week you're presenting Merrily We Roll Along - two lesser known Sondheim shows, and also two of his least often produced shows. What made you decide to present both of these musicals?

"The decision to do Assassins was based on, I was high on the show at the time since I’d just listened to it for the first time a month or so prior, and we realized it was produce-able and that we had a good cast for it if we could get people to do it. It was really spur-of-the-moment, but once we had pitched it to Josh Pike, to Justin Carey, to Aaron Ciolek, these wonderful actors that we knew, it all of a sudden felt like something I really had to make happen. COVID hurt that, of course, but eventually we made our way and I was really proud of what we did with it. 

Merrily was one of several ideas we had kind of tossed around for a follow-up while we were doing Assassins (I really wanted to do Cats), but eventually, I think just because Jonah is such a big fan of the show, it became just a kind of given that that’s what we’d do next. And I’m a huge fan of it, too, and had already worked through the script and done a loose blocking of it, so I was more than happy to get to work on it for the next year."

For someone who's never heard of Merrily We Roll Along, what would you tell them it's about?

"Merrily We Roll Along is about a composer named Franklin Shepard, who screws up a lot and hurts a lot of people in his life on the way to success, and all the friends and acquaintances and coworkers who try to pull him in different directions along the way. Except it’s told in reverse, from 1976 to 1957. It’s a show about balance, about clinging to your dreams as opposed to letting them go, and the way people grow apart over time, even when they’re not necessarily growing. And it’s a real mess, which I think is important to mention when you’re talking about Merrily. It’s a disastrous show. But when it works, it’ll leave you weeping."

The cast of State of the Art's production of Assassins
photo by Sullivan Clisham

For this production, as well as for Assassins last year, you're directing and Jonah is the music director and choreographer. How did the two of you fall into these roles?

"It’s been so long now, I’m honestly not sure why I was the director. I want to say I’d blocked musicals for fun on my own time. I’d certainly cast them for fun; I did about a million fake castings of my friends in different shows with Josh Pike, who’s playing Charley Kringas in this, when I was in high school. And I think I had a mock cast of Assassins I’d put together, which was very different from what the cast ended up being. I think Josh as the Balladeer and Aaron Ciolek as Sam Byck were the only two holdovers. But Jonah knew how to dance, which I did not, and he goes to school to teach music, so those roles seemed like no-brainers for him. I guess I just directed Assassins because I had ideas for it."

Merrily We Roll Along has always been a "problem" show in that a lot of people don't quite "get" it, because it's told backwards. What are your thoughts on that being an issue and what choices are you making with your direction to make sure the time element of the show is clear.

"Merrily is definitely a problem show, and that’s something I’ve been very explicit with my actors about during the process. I don’t know that I’ve ever said 'I hate this' more about a show in my life. I think the time thing, though, isn’t necessarily the weirdest part—at least, not when it comes to the audience understanding what’s going on. In my mind, it’d be pretty difficult to watch a line of 9 people shout at you, '1968!', and be like 'I wonder what year this is taking place in.' You kind of take it moment by moment in that regard. It might take an audience member three scenes to fully understand that the show is working backwards, but they’re going to hear '1973' and '1968' and '1967' before each scene, so I can’t imagine they’ll be lost in the moment. 

But to me, the real problem with Merrily comes from the fact that it’s a show about people who become miserable and unlikable as they get older, and we meet them for the first time at their oldest. So there’s not a lot of sympathy to grab onto in the first act—at least, not when you’re seeing it all for the first time. So you play with that. I think a lot of people try to make Mary Flynn a very dry, biting character, but really she can be very poppy and fun. Frank can be very idealistic even in his old age. So you let that shine through a bit, even if he’s cheating on his wife or whatever awful thing he’s doing. And Elaine Pratt and Dean Kelldorf, they’re incredible actors, so they make my job easy."

Danielle Yokley (Gussie) and Dean Kelldorf (Frank)
in rehearsal for Merrily We Roll Along
photo by Sullivan Clisham

What was the Merrily audition process like and is there anything you learned about the show, or something new you took away from it, during the rehearsals?

"I have to say, I love auditions. I love being surprised and shifting things around. Half of our leads were in Assassins last year, and a good number of our ensemble members were, too. There are a lot of people in the show who Jonah and/or I knew prior, either from school or previous shows or just the general Phoenix community theater scene. Off the top of my head, I think there are three people we were totally unfamiliar with, which is basically proportional to the turnout we had. One of them, Danielle Yokley, is our Gussie Carnegie, and she’s just phenomenal. The same thing happened once or twice last year. Sometimes, it’s a wildcard auditioner coming in and being just shockingly great, and sometimes, it’s someone you’ve known a long time who shows up and—wouldn’t you know it—they’re just perfect for a part you’d never have expected them to play. That happened this year with Elaine Pratt as Mary, who I’ve known almost four years now. She had expressed to us that she was really interested in that part, and so we called her back for it with really no expectations in particular, and Jonah texted me and said, 'I think she’s our Mary.' And I watched her tape and agreed. You never know."

In terms of the rehearsal process, it’s always the little moments that really shift. I’ve been living with this show almost a year now, so I understand the intricacies of the overall picture, and that’s my job, frankly. If I was clicking together major aspects of how the show worked and flowed at this stage, I think I’d be behind a step. But it’s the little moments, like when Alec Pursell, who plays Joe Josephson, finds the right beat to make a moment feel awkward and funny and real. Or when Ryenne Morgan, who plays Beth Spencer, changes just one word in a throwaway line to make it feel simpler and freer and richer and clearer. Those things are what it’s all about. And finding the traffic, finding the sets, taking ideas as they come. That’s something I think is super important, is the collaborative aspect. Taking ideas from the actors and involving them in coming up with solutions to problems. I try to be good about that."

What else can you tell us about the cast of this production?

"I love every single person in it. I think that’s the big thing. The turnout for auditions was fantastic and we’re working with a lot of people I love working with, who I’ve always wanted to work with. Dean Kelldorf is playing Franklin Shepard, and I think anyone who knows me knows I think Dean is the best living actor. In the same season I saw him in The Addams Family at Desert Stages and in Dogfight at Spotlight, and those are two totally opposite performances, and they were both the best performances I’d seen in Phoenix. It was just very clear to me that he was super versatile, super convincing, just brilliantly talented, and when he did Assassins with me, it turned out he was great to work with, too. And doing this show with him has been an incredibly fun challenge. I think it’s the hardest part he’s ever played. I don’t know if he’d agree. 

Then there’s Josh Pike and Ryenne Morgan as Charley Kringas and Beth Spencer. And I lump them together because I went to school with them, and because they’re really just unreasonably talented. It’s really not fair that they’re that good at what they do. And they just keep getting better, so I got them kind of at the height of their powers this year. Elaine Pratt, as I mentioned, has always been one of the most talented people I know, and as Mary Flynn she is just unbelievable. Danielle Yokley, our wildcard, is a perfect Gussie, even though she’s actually really nice in real life. And Alec Pursell gets to play the Alec Pursell role of a lifetime as Joe Josephson, a New York producer who actually gets some depth while also working as a hilarious bit part. Alec’s been having a lot of fun with it, and I really haven’t worked with him much before now, so I’ve been really surprised at how great an actor he is. I knew he’d be good, but I didn’t know he’d be that good. 

And finally, our ensemble, who I’ll list because they deserve their names in here: Kendra Goodenberger, Rose Hanna, Amber Suding, Valerie Sepulveda, Max Mendoza, Jared Barbee, Corban Adams, and Aaron Ciolek. Any of them could’ve been leads in this show, and I mean that sincerely. The ensemble is so demanding, so full of little bits and songs and memorable moments, it’ll be really exciting to see which of them audiences gravitate towards."

Josh Pike (Charley), Elaine Pratt (Mary) and Ryenne Morgan (Beth)
in rehearsal for Merrily We Roll Along
photo by Sullivan Clisham

I know Jonah is studying choral music education at Portland State University.and you'll be studying Film & TV starting in the fall at New York University. What made you decide to apply to that program, and. while I know it's a couple of years away, what do you see yourself doing after graduation?

"I applied mostly to acting schools when I was in high school. I got an in-person audition at Carnegie Mellon and Pace and a couple other schools. I applied to ASU and U of A as well. But my family and I couldn’t figure out how to apply to NYU’s musical theater program (hint for anyone interested: it’s at Steinhardt, not Tisch), and my dad stumbled upon this major called 'Cinema Studies,' and we looked at it and said, 'why not?', and applied. I wrote a seven-and-a-half page essay on my all-time favorite movie, Teen Wolf with Michael J. Fox, and I somehow got in. It was the best school I got into, even if it wasn’t for acting. So I went. And after my first semester, I realized I had gotten into this groove in high school, and continued it after when I did Assassins, where I was really learning by doing. I was constantly making stuff and putting on shows, and studying film theory and film history for a year was just not my thing, as much as I love critical thinking about movies and all. But I felt very empty, and Merrily was the only thing keeping me going. 

So I thought, 'what if I had a Merrily every couple months?' I attended a Zoom session about transferring to the Film & TV program, which is top 2 in the world, and realized I was eligible. They mentioned that the program was strong on a 'learn-by-doing' approach, so that resonated. I applied, and lo and behold, I got in. 

The hope for the future is that I’ll keep making stuff. I’m working on a short screenplay that I’ll hope to direct before my fall semester—my brother, Sullivan, is really good at making movies. That would be the first movie I’ve directed. If I like it enough, which I think I will, I’ll try and keep making movies and directing plays. However I can do that, I’m happy to do that. Long-term goal is a Superman movie. Like a real-deal Superman movie. That’s about as close to a plan as I have at the moment."

What do you see as the future for State of the Art?

"God knows. I like the name a lot. I love working with Jonah, I love working with all these actors, and with the actors who were in Assassins but not this, and plenty of actors who weren’t in either show. So, I don’t know what State of the Art is. In my mind, really, it’s me and Jonah. And Jonah wants to be a teacher, so really, long-term, it’s just sort of my brand. So I guess my mental plan is to sort of slap the name on whatever stuff I make that I can slap it on. Like the Nintendo seal of approval. Anything I make that I’m proud of, it’ll be State of the Art. Whether that continues to take the form of a once-a-year production of a cool musical—we’re not just a Sondheim brand, although we love Sondheim—I really couldn’t say. But I know Jared Barbee, who was in Assassins and is in this, he compared it recently to a theater troupe. And I do love that vibe. I love the idea of getting to just keep making stuff with this group of people, and add to that group with every musical, every movie, every play. That’s an exciting concept to me."

What do you hope audiences will take away from seeing your production of Merrily We Roll Along?

"Like you said before, Merrily is a problem show, and although I love our production, I don’t pretend to have fixed it. I hope audiences have fun with it, I hope they stick it out to the end. I hope they love the score. I hope they love the performances. But as a show, really, I think if 60% of the audience loves it, I’ll have done my job. If we can get 60% of the people in the house crying during 'Our Time', I think that counts as a win. It’s likely we’ll lose some people, for sure. But I think that risk is what’s exciting about it, too. This isn’t Shrek or something where you’re going to watch it and go, 'oh, that was pleasant. It was cute. It was big and showy.' And that has its place, I think Shrek is a great show. But Merrily has that risk. It has that awkwardness. It has that trouble where you have to find the balance. And we’re still finding it, and I imagine we’ll still be trying to find it on closing night. I think people have been trying to find the balance for 40 years and no one’s succeeded. So we’ll see how it all turns out. But we’re going to have a ton of fun searching for it.

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